Episode 2: Christian Weisbrodt, CRO at Finway

Jan 0:00
Questions for Christian? And yeah, first of all, so happy to have a Christian greetings from the fire team. It’s my pleasure. And the way the quickfire questions are four of them is that you first read out the question yourself. And then you answer them in your own words, because by that we can, you know, delivered very nice, you know, and have a very Instagram, not Instagram, LinkedIn fancy, of course. Yeah.

Christian 0:32
Should I give the context? So for example, if we pick the first one, why did you choose to work in marketing? So is that so I should rephrase the question. And not give any, any any context?

Marcus 0:47
No, that’s fine. That’s fine. We’ll take care of the rest. It will be dope. I promise you.

Christian 0:51
Yeah. All right. So then, yeah, I have the question. So then, then I kick it off. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for your questions. First question is Why did you choose to work in marketing? Christian? Yeah, my answer is in the, in the beginning, it was my interest in consumer advertising. That was already during my school days. So I looked entering marketing purely from the creative part. Yeah, creating great ads. But however, already, in my first job, I ended up in b2b tech, I quickly learned that creativity is important, but it’s much more than just being creative. That that makes a great marketer. And that still thrills me and my job.

Jan 1:40
That’s a 10 out of 10, as a Christian did exactly the other beyond expectation. We have done this with others. And they were a bit you know, difficult to quick

Marcus 1:49
and short, you will love it. That’s the way of doing things. Good. Let’s keep doing it.

Christian 1:53
Yeah. All right. Next one. So what’s the best piece of advice, marketing advice that I have ever received? I would like to make it to two advices. So the first one doesn’t directly comes from marketing, but just like doing marketing, in a startup. And that was the advice in hyper growth. There’s no room for perfection that came from an HR person, actually. But I’ll try to apply, apply that advice also to marketing. And then the second one is, if you try to please everyone, you will end up being mediocre. So be provocative and try to please some people and be ready also to piss off a few. That’s, that’s the better thing to do. That’s, that’s the BDR speaking. And you? Yeah, so good. Okay, great. So next, what’s the craftiest way you’ve ever been? prospected? Yeah, I mean, being in the role of a VP marketing or SEO, you’ve been prospected a lot. I don’t recall really a specific one that really stands out. And that sticks to my mind still. Because there are so many boring ways I’ve been prospected However, what always gets my attention is that if someone truly gets my job, and truly understands my daily challenges, and then can combine these challenges with an entertaining, entertaining, yet informative message, so if you do that, you get me.

Jan 3:43
I would love to do that question. I would have gotten you’re young you never had to Yeah, you never had to love it. So

Christian 3:56
the gate Next question. gated content Yes. Or no and and why? I changed my mind lately on that. Even though that in the past, I’ve been we often gated content. And we also had achieved fairly great success with like gating content and nurturing the heck out of these leads. I came lately to the conclusion. If in doubt, then don’t get why first. I think it annoys everyone. People are more and more annoyed by filling in a long form before they can access content. And second, there’s no need anymore to do that. Especially if you use something like our cross sell. There’s no need to get content so you can do better than that. We don’t even ask for it. That’s fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, then the longest one. What are the next question? What are the three tips you would give Other marketers to J to take down or break down the silos between marketing and sales. So, sales and marketing. So I have three one. So first of all, together, build a reverse funnel, but do that together with sales. Second, agree on clear SLA s between marketing and sales. And these are SLA s for both ends. So the the SLA for marketing is of course like to have a clearly definition, what is a marketing qualified leads? Or what are the leads that you hand over to sales, what quality they should have? But then the SLA, for example, from the sales side should be what’s the turnaround time of leads? And also, what is the feedback that needs to be collected when qualifying further qualifying leads? So that’s the second one. And the third one, to take down the or break down the silos between marketing and sales, just switch jobs. And if you do it for two weeks, just do it. Yeah. So like, let VP marketing to sales for two weeks and let the VP sales run the marketing department for two weeks. That that helps a lot.

Marcus 6:17
Are you joining the phone soon? Yeah, I did. I’m yawning. Okay, then we have the last one fire shots here. And then we share a little bit. So I will ask the questions, and we will have more of a conversation. Okay.

Christian 6:29
Okay, great. Last one. And that’s, that’s a similar one. What tools help you most day to day. It’s too It’s not my CRM, it’s HubSpot. But it’s a great CRM. And it’s Asana. So I mean, managing a team and all the tasks and projects. We, we use Asana

Marcus 6:48
make fully sense.

Christian 6:50
I haven’t included our cross in his line, it’s fine. It’s a great tool, but it’s not in my day to day list. Now,

Marcus 6:57
I understand that fully. Okay, so we’d be different. Now. I will read the question. And you know, the answer may be long, it may be awesome, you know, follow up questions. It really depends on which direction, right? You’re always joining, or do you want to live?

Jan 7:10
I will ever join as much as I can. I will waive when i when i have to say goodbye but never gonna miss it. Okay.

Marcus 7:18
Okay, so I’ll read those. I’m with you. You’re always in news. We’re we’re recording after. Okay, let’s kick started. So we talked about like, a lot of different KPIs. And if you’re looking for the marketing, source, revenue and marketing influence revenue as your primary KPI, what will you choose?

Christian 7:35
Yeah, it depends on the market you’re in, as we are an SMB market, I go for the marketing source revenue. If I would be an enterprise, and I would more do account based marketing, then of course, I would choose marketing influence revenue.

Marcus 7:52
Is there any other KPI you will look here that you will actually set about this?

Christian 7:57
Well, I mean, the The both of these KPIs, they are lagging KPIs, because even an SMB and even more an enterprise between doing marketing and having revenue, it can be quite some time 369 months. And hence, it’s a lagging indicator, and doesn’t really help your optimizing your marketing in the short term. So I would look rather for in the short term, I would rather look for marketing source pipeline, not the revenue, because assuming that the sales team always just like the same quality of job, as soon as there is pipeline, the channel or campaign should not any longer impact the conversion rate of the pipeline, because then it’s rather a sales drop. And the other part I would look at as a marketing, you also have to monitor the costs as well is then the cost or the spent per marketing sourced pipeline dollar. So how many dollars you spend on creating $1 of pipeline, you have to make i would i would not go for cost per lead. As in almost like all areas, you have quite a range of ACV you can do deals with I don’t know, like 5000 euro as an adult with the same business you have also deals with 20,000 ACV. And then if you look at the cost per lead, you don’t take that into account.

Marcus 9:34
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I agree with you as well. I think the general problem is, is say like, if you’re looking to measure revenue, it’s hard to see the actual return on your marketing campaigns in general. But you see it but it takes it takes time to make sure because you need to ensure the quality of the like, the pipeline you’re creating actually turns to revenue, right? Because that’s something we have struggled sometimes or self with you know, generating the Like, hundreds of houses and pipeline every month, but we are maybe not sure if that’s always the right customer, because it does accept us pipeline. But it’s not always turns out to revenue. And maybe that’s about the, you know, sales process and learnings from that that, you know, was that set, you can probably, you know, focus. Yeah, almost entire pipeline.

Christian 10:19
Yeah. I mean, and you should be crystal clear, of course, when is it when our sales reps allowed to create an opportunity and when something enters the pipeline, so that you have a clearly defined quality gate on what enters the pipeline and what doesn’t. And then if you once have agreed on that quality gate, then I think, I mean, for example, or let’s put it the other way around, if you see that, after that quality gate of creating an opportunity, the source of the lead still has an influence, then you might not have defined the quality gate, gate in the right manner. Because then the, the the quality on whether elite is coming from that channel, or from that campaign, that should be sorted out before the gate of becoming an opportunity. So you should have like some pre opportunity stages, where you can, you know, sort out the quality.

Marcus 11:19
Yeah, that’s kind of what we do in like trying to learn from every stage you have in the serum common, basically. So yeah, I agree with you further. Okay, let’s, let’s continue. How are we making sure you get the return on your marketing campaigns to align with your KPI goals?

Christian 11:34
Well, that’s pretty broad question. Let’s, let’s try to see, like, first, I think, when ever you start with a campaign or with a new channel, you have to define a clear expectation. What do you want to get out of it? Yeah, and what KPIs will be influenced. So I think there’s not a one size fits all that you always say, like, you know, I take like, the amount of pipeline that I generate through that campaign, always as as the right metric, because it can be okay, also to create campaigns that are not focused directly of creating pipeline. But you should be at least what I said, you should be clear, what are the KPIs? And then, of course, you should know on how these KPIs influence your ultimate KPI, which then, again, is like, source pipeline, and I think often forgotten is in the beginning is did you make sure that you really can track the metric? Because often, you define metrics, and you’re, you’re not really 100%? Sure, on whether and how to track that.

Marcus 12:48
On top of that, like is your pain there? I think that’s why a be one of the biggest challenge some of the marketing projects is very hard to track, or at least a long time to track. Right. So yeah, I think that’s kind of a struggle as well.

Christian 13:02
And that’s what it says like, the second thing is really like is how can you? How can you define a leading indicator or leading metric, so that you can test quickly, even if there’s a certain uncertainty if you achieve that metric, if that really converts in the right manner to your ultimate goal, but the thing is always like what could be a leading indicator or leading metric that you can test quickly, and then test quickly? And and whatever campaign this say like, Okay, how long time it will take until we get sufficient amount of data, so that the test is either successful, or has failed?

Marcus 13:43
See, you will argue that to making having successful marketing campaigns, the importance of having, like, you know, earlier indicator of how to track a goal, a key thing to be successful, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay, I

Jan 14:02
just have to jump jump into your markets, because it’s so interesting. So like, what are the things that you are sort of missing to say, like, practically, because what we hear a lot of standard, a lot of people lie on, like, like a dad for like a conversion rate, a certain conversion rate that they rent or certain return of, of investment for a campaign, even though they target maybe specific accounts for specific and the companies that they have to get in? And so, is that something that that they’re struggling with? That it’s still, you know, a bit flimsy sometimes to the KPIs or?

Christian 14:41
Yeah, I mean, if you of course, like, you know, you you run a new campaign and you also tackle or address a whole new market, like a new segment of companies or a new regional market, because then you have like two things. I can you can pay Enter new market, which of course makes it really difficult to set like a certain benchmark. But when it just like on campaign level, you test a new campaign. But in a market where you have been already in the past, then of course, you can take the results of other campaigns in the same market as a benchmark. So I mean, just like giving an example, in my previous job, when we first tested out across, we said, like, okay, now, we provide data to our SDRs for the outreach, and we assume that this data should be of a higher quality compared to just doing outreach based on symbol lists. I mean, we had the conversion data of, if I contact 20 companies out of out of a list, which is kind of a random list, I get a certain conversion rate into the first meeting and into opportunities. And of course, if I use a tool or like certain data, which costs something as well, then, of course, I can clearly calculate on what should be like the better performance in regards to conversion rate to meetings to pipeline. And this, I can test fairly quickly. Yeah, I mean, so here again, maybe pipeline is late, lagging indicator. But if I just provide the data to the SDRs, and say, like, okay, now one week you work on that data, that after two weeks, I already have the results on whether the conversion rate into a first meeting, how does that compare to the benchmark of taking a random list?

Marcus 16:41
under percent? Okay, this one this is this is a good question, because like everyone has different opinions about this won’t be your first markethive today and why?

Christian 16:51
It depends, it depends so much. I mean, that, I think it is basically in what business are you in? Are you an SMP? Are you an enterprise? So? And also how, how ready is the market? Yeah, so let’s take an example. So I mean, first of all, I clearly would go for a generalist, if it’s really your very, very first market, I would go for a digital savvy generalist who can set up like the basics, like website, CRM, performance marketing. So and I think these are skills that you often find within the person. And I would rather put more focus, maybe on performance marketing on SCA, if if it’s a market that already exists, because then you know, also, searches with a high intent already exist, and your, your first marketer should like harvest that intent that is already there. If If you enter or if you build a new market, then of course, you should rather focus on you know, copywriting on thought leadership content, maybe also on SEO. So it always depends on the segment you are in, but it also depends on the maturity of the market that you enter.

Marcus 18:08
Yeah, and this makes sense. I think, I have a quite good like, you know, following question here. And I think this is something that difference a lot, I heard so many different stories, I really want to have your take on this. Like what what we say like one of the most important contribution as a person, you’re hiring in marketing? Like Yeah, well, you like wanna see

Christian 18:31
more on the soft skill area? I want someone who is constantly unsatisfied with the results? Yeah. So I’ve been someone who is always like, Can we do that better? And, but also always curious, on testing new things, and, and being willing, also to fail with these experiments. And to learn from these experiments. I think this curiosity on testing new channels, new messaging, is the most important part, which also the Curiosity also covers the curiosity, really, to be able, I mean, that’s kind of like, what I look into salespersons as well, is to truly understand the challenges in the day to day job of the target audience. Yeah, that’s also where you have to be curious as a marketer, just as as an SDR. So quite the same qualities. Yeah. And the main thing also why I would go for a generalist in the first place is, I mean, most likely, if it’s your first marketing hire, you don’t know yet on which channels will work. So if you bring in a specialist as the very first one, who someone who can do only SCA or who can only do copywriting, maybe it’s the wrong path to go and then you have already The wrong hire.

Marcus 20:03
Yeah, I mean I was for from Christiane, thank you so much.

Jan 20:10
I love the I love the comparison between marketers to be like an SDR super curious, like,

Marcus 20:16
that’s actually when I addressed the like, you can also turn it around the great str has to be a great marketer. Yeah, yeah. So this is something I actually want, like, you know, I want the salesperson in marketing, I have so many good conversation with you know, post sale, people being in marketing because they knew the product and so well and how to pitch is requite usually very good at you know, addressing the problem at essentially if marketing is like the one of the better sales in the company know, when the product best very well, then you can make sure your product campaigns will be successful.

Christian 20:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, like, if, I mean, in the end, it’s the same qualities that you need to be that you need to have in order to be great at marketing and sales. I mean, of course, there’s certain knowledge that you have to acquire along the way, that makes you a great marketer or a great, great salesperson. But I think especially in the beginning, and when we’re talking about first hires, I think if you find the right person, you could put the right person as a first tire as well in sales as a marketing.

Marcus 21:20
Awesome, thank you. Let’s jump to the next. Let me know if it’s unclear. But what I’m trying to get here is like, you know, understanding the top three challenges with demand generation, you know,

Christian 21:33
yeah, also quite broad area. I mean, let’s let’s try to approach it from from from the one way. So I think, also more from the view of an early stage startup, I think but it also continues to be a challenge in the long run, or if you’re grown up company, or scale up company, is to balance long term brand building with short term, Legion. So this is really a top challenge to do that. Yeah. Because if you only focus on the short term, Legion, you will make the next quarter. But your life will be will remain difficult in the following quarter. So you definitely have to invest also in the in the brand building, because that helps you to generate demand and leads for free in the long run. Yeah. And how to balance that. Yeah, like,

Marcus 22:26
the take, I have a little bit like, you know, you want to create the demand, you know, knowing that awareness about your company, and Wednesday, actually, you know, having that problem, then they come to you, right, so creating an audience outside, you know, your target list. That’s also how you can create a new type of customers as well, in my opinion,

Christian 22:46
yeah, but they will most likely come to you much later on, they will not come to you the next quarter, if you build awareness, and you make your target audience aware of you and aware maybe also of the problem that you’re solving. But then of course, these are, these might be a lot of people that say like, well, that’s great, interesting. So, you know, in half a year, we’ll get back to them. So you did a great job as a marketer, but it will, you know, the payback is much later, opposite to, you know, just like fully focus your marketing and your your dimension on those who already have an intent. And they’re just like, try to get bring into your funnel, so that that you definitely need to.

Marcus 23:24
So like, when we’re talking about these kinds of challenges like this, like, in general how to get short results in marketing in especially demand Gen space, like, as a new mark, do you mean you need to prove yourself, so you need to get time? Like ha, and us VP marketing? How do you like, handle these kind of things?

Christian 23:48
Not sure if I got the question really, right. I mean, at the moment, of course, I try. I mean, we are still in early stage startup. So I mean, of course, I try that I said like, well, at least, this is the amount of high intent Marketing Leads that my sales team even if it’s still a small team, that they need at the moment just to make the quota. So, of course, we are not talking about large amount of leads or pipeline that they need to to achieve our early stage goals. So of course, I have to invest my time and money and my resources into at least generating that amount. But I do not necessarily need to invest more to you know, to scale it. Yeah. Because and, and in this time and energy I can rather take in the long term brand awareness. Yeah, that makes that answer the question.

Marcus 24:42
Yeah. Question for me.

Christian 24:46
And, and I think like a common Another common thing I’ve been asked like four three. So the second one, I think that’s a typical one and that’s regardless of your whether you’re early stage or scale up or mature company. It is marketers always fall into the pitfall of using like the typical common marketing professional lingo. Yeah. So it’s like, like, optimize your x, y Zed with a market leading solution, blah, blah, blah. So, and instead of

Marcus 25:22
talking to humans, right, yeah, talk human to talk to humans, that’s the best thing you can learn in marketing, right? If you nailed that you’re set for success is Yes,

Christian 25:32
yeah. But the interesting thing is that often people start like that. And then you know, once the company, they are more and more on their job, and the company comes more mature, they fall into, you know, this typical professional business lingo, which no one wants to hear. Yeah, now. And then, while you grow, and that’s like my third, like, my, my number three on the list is connecting the dots. I mean, especially if your marketing team grows and your channels and your campaigns grow, is how to align different marketing channels and campaigns. So for example, how does my SGA influence my LinkedIn campaigns? How can I attribute these things? Yeah, the impact of channels and the costs to outcome. So especially if you’re a larger organization, and marketing, this is becoming one of the top challenges.

Marcus 26:32
Yeah, like, I agree there, and simply like, you know, different things actually get different effects on different things like, you know, we push a lot of like LinkedIn to drive direct traffic, but it does, you know, helping shorter sales cycles and these kind of things. So a lot of things have a lot of different outputs as well, right? You can’t exactly tie them all. But you have like an estimation of it, right?

Christian 26:52
Yeah. Yeah. Even if like, like just about an example, even if you do SGA campaigns focused on immediately, Chen. And of course, you have like, you can measure the outcome of immediately generation of through SGA campaigns. But they also have a long term effect on branding. Because if people constantly see your ads, and that’s the part that you cannot measure the same on LinkedIn. If you do great campaigns on LinkedIn, even if they’re focused on each and you do print, brand

Marcus 27:21
real estate, it’s real estate everywhere, right? Yeah, yeah, it is real estate, and they advertising real estate, real estate. Okay, awesome. Like we do this too short, because I know you maybe are busy. And you’re I know, you’re busy. Because you’re running, like 10 more minutes. Okay, it’s fine. Like, we’ll take care of it. Okay, if you would improve the way you buy software? How much should that be?

Christian 27:44
Yeah. I think the most annoying part for me as buying software at the moment is that comes with the typical sa SAS business model. Everyone goes for immediately annual contracts. And you know, you have a seven day trial, where you basically have enough time to understand on how the tool works. And if I could improve it, I would ask everyone in SAS to offer me even if it’s a paid proof of concept. So because typically, before I can find out if a new tool really does its job, I need to work with that for two or three months. And of course, obviously, I mean, companies don’t want to, you know, give me their tool for free for two or three months. So, for me personally, a paid proof of concept time would be the best way to buy software.

Marcus 28:37
Yeah, I see. It’s usually like for sorting required on like, you know, seeing using PLCs, you know, you’re having three months PLC or six months, and you’re paying for it, and then your contract. If the matrix is working according to what you agreed on from beginning, then it’s as much as you get to contract. And yes, that’s quite fine. Right? Because then you bought a new product that you agree on, right? And if it does say what it does do what you say? That is no question that’s right there. Yeah.

Christian 29:05
Yeah. I had that was several of times, like with tools that I did not use were said like, No, I mean, we’re not doing it. Because I’m not signing a one year or two year contract, I was just looking at the functionality of your product. And if you’re not willing to invest that time, and as I said, like, I’m willing to invest money into that, to pay the monthly rate, whatever is like the annual contract, I can break it down and pay that monthly fee. But I have a clear expectation of the outcome, as you said, like impacting that should have an impact on a certain metric. And I can agree upfront with the vendor also on what metric I would like to see changed over the course of three months. And then I pay using the tool for three months. And afterwards I have the impact or I don’t and then I go for the for the full contract or I don’t

Marcus 29:57
Yeah, I mean, I think that ties into like being a good buy. Not if you buy something I’m not a good buyer, you’re quite certain on what outcome you’re gonna expect from it. And either is a fit or not the fit, right?

Unknown Speaker 30:10
Yeah. And yeah, and especially, I mean, any vendor would probably would like to welcome me as as a long paying longtime customer Yeah, to increase the customer lifetime value. And if they don’t trust me or their own product that after three months, I will become that longtime customer. Well, then what’s, what’s the heck talking about that anyway? Yeah. Because then it looks to me, you know, he assigned that one year contract, because is a salesperson get my commission? Because everything that happens after this one, yeah, I don’t care anyway.

Marcus Svensson 30:43
That’s true, though. Yeah. Okay, we finally up with the last one. I mean, you’ve probably seen this on PBS, they probably people in your team before have come to you with this, because it is the most marketing PR, it takes time to get results. How do you convince your stakeholders to buy in?

Christian 31:00
Yeah, I mean, first of all, like, I fortunately, do not have to get like the buy in from other stakeholders like to siphon off budgets or whatsoever. Fortunately, I don’t have to do that. And I would say also, like, if you if you need to get the buy in from stakeholders like that could be your superiors or, I mean, typically, its superiors? Yeah, it’s like the management where you had to have to get in the buy in. I mean, in general, if you are in a position, where you have to get the buy in from your superiors for each marketing project, I think there’s something fundamentally wrong, you have like, you have fundamental underlying issues, because, I mean, they should trust you as a marketer that you invest time and money in a wise, wisely. Yeah. So I mean, okay, but that’s, that’s not really the question. Yeah. But I mean, just ask yourself, if you’ve worked as a marketer, in an environment where you have to get the buy in for each of your project, you’re probably in the wrong environment,

Marcus 32:11
they probably have a lot of micromanagement, right?

Christian 32:14
Gao micromanage or just like General, not trusting marketing, and not trusting the work in marketing. So and that’s the same with me. I mean, like, if, like, people approached me When, when, when I’m the stakeholder, I as a marketing lead, I’m the stakeholder. So what I expect in general, is, I mean, first of all, majority, I would give the people the freedom like, you know, to go their way. So, but I think it’s like, again, like database hypothesis. Yeah. So if we invest this amount, we expect to get the following results. And these are the leading indicators that indicate very early on, on whether we will end up with the results that we want to get out of it. Yeah. For the short term. And then, also, I mean, what I would always try to do and what I expect all select people to do when they come to me, is that I tried to break down the bigger project in a very short and quick test, so that they thought about how can we test that in the shortest time with the shortest amount of resources possible? Before we scale the project? And afterwards?

Marcus 33:36
Yeah, it makes fuller sense. And I mean, if you have kind of also last last question that I think is very interesting. What do you mean, like, get I get asked a lot, a lot. Last shorter question. This is a question that always comes up and I see it everywhere, right? marketing, or sometimes, you know, in a black box in a company. Not everyone knows what to doing. How would you like in the marketing or as a marketing leader? Making sure you’re not in this black box? for a company? Yeah.

Christian 34:08
Well, I think I mean, like, the one thing is, of course, like, you don’t track to track your impact. Yeah, I mean, like, currently, you can track your impact. Yeah, you can track on. These are the new customers, and they came in through marketing. These are also customers that have been touched during the sales cycle. So you can clearly track and of course, then also showcase that impact either to the to the top level management or to the sales management or whatever forum you have in inside of your company, where you can showcase that, that impact that you have had. So I think that’s the first thing and it’s it’s, it’s, in general, it’s not that difficult to do. I mean, we discussed that earlier. It’s like, there are probably certain channels or campaigns where you find it difficult to track the impact. But that should be like just like one portion of it. And but this, there are enough things where marketing clearly has an impact and you can showcase that. Yeah, that’s true. I mean, coming back to coming back to maybe like specific to Albert cross, like if someone would use Alba cross. And he could say, like, here, listen, these are the customers that we closed last year. And here’s when they have been on our website. Yeah, I see them in these. They have been on our website, clearly before the sale started the conversation with them. Yeah. So that’s already one very simple way on how you can show the impact of marketing on your business.

Marcus 35:48
Yeah, I mean, and this ties into marketing source revenue in young. Okay, Chris. Yeah. Yeah, it was super, super effective for this conversation. I mean, it’s always a pleasure talking with you. You always have these wise words that’s recently loved talking to you right? Now, but seriously, so much. Thank you. I’ll send you this off the cuff did and all these things. We will post it on LinkedIn tag you and like it will be nice and tidy. You will love it. I promise you. Okay, great. Looking forward to it. Thank you so much. Bye.